Forum PayVault Fees & Network

Discussion and help relating to the PlayerIO payment solution, PayVault.

Fees & Network

Postby FierceFun » April 3rd, 2016, 8:46 pm

Hi
Just looking for info on 2 things.
The Yahoo Developer Games Network is great btw

1. Fees
If you gov over 5,000 CCU, you get charged based on ?
How does Yahoo know the games sales, you might not have any

2. Yahoo Developer Games Network itself
We are developing a new game and would like to use the Network - just wanted to make sure it will be continuing into the future

Thanks
Pete
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby Henrik » April 9th, 2016, 12:57 am

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Re: Fees & Network

Postby aseemgarg321 » April 9th, 2016, 10:01 pm

This question of mine goes to the people who have been with this system since PlayerIO days.

I can see we are going back to Old pricing model which existed before Yahoo days.. In this pricing model more or less everything seems clear - Just 1 doubt as I started used this system after Yahoo..

For pay-vault use we need a Paid account - Quite Clear and Fair Enough..

But I am kinda confused on this part - "0.05$ per successful transaction" and "0.01$ per 1000 history entries"..
1) Do they mean for every "Transaction from PAYMENT MADE by customer" OR "Every Credit/Debit we Do on Coins as User plays our game".
2) Does this also apply to Items Given and consumed ?
3) What History Entries are we talking about. - "The Credit/debit history of each Player" OR "History of Payments Made by various users" ?

Sorry for Noob Question - But I wasn't there when old pricing system was used, hence such confusion..

Thanks,
Aseem
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby Henrik » April 11th, 2016, 10:32 pm

The way it used to work, and the way it's going to work going forward (unless Brian and his team makes any larger changes. :-) ) is this:

A successful transaction is a PayVault transaction where you got real money in from a user. So if a user buys something in-game for $10, the payment provider you are using (Facebook, PayPal?) will take a cut, and Player.IO will take a (much smaller) cut of $0.05.

A history entry is what is created whenever you call Credit or Debit or Give, or in any way modify a user's managed inventory or coins. Originally some game went nuts with this feature, which is why there is a cost to it, so if someone goes nuts with it they'll simply have to pay for the usage.

In general, we recommend using BigDB for user data that changes rapidly.
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby aseemgarg321 » April 11th, 2016, 11:23 pm

Thanks Henrik.. :)

This indeed clears lot of confusion..
and also I can see this is in Sync with tab "Resource Usage" in player Insight..

Though after visiting "Resource Usage" in player Insight, I have few more questions..
what action or data qualifies under what tabs..
1) WebService - NOT clear on this - as I haven't used any WebService in my game.
2) Received/Sent from Client - quite clear on this..
3) Received/Sent from WebService - again Not clear - and how is it different from 1.
4) Received/Sent from Web Requests -again Not clear.

If you can please explain once, what actions qualifies what, it will be of great help..

Thanks,
Aseem
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby Henrik » April 12th, 2016, 12:33 am

Game Traffic is the sum of all the traffic that flows between the game clients, the api webservice, and the game servers, plus any traffic from game servers to external services. So there's six columns: client to/from webservice, client to/from game server, and game server to/from webservice.
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby aseemgarg321 » April 12th, 2016, 8:53 am

hope this is last question from my side.. : :)

1) The DB calls and Payvault calls - do them come under "Received/Sent from WebService" ?

2) and Payments - do they come under "Received/Sent from Web Requests"? (Also if I make payment Verification from Server or maybe to my own website for some additional information)

just trying to figure out- what comes under what...

Thanks,
Aseem
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby Henrik » April 12th, 2016, 6:39 pm

1) Yes.

2) Is it a request to our webservice? Then yes. Is it a request from the game server? Then yes. Is it a request from the player's computer to something we don't control? Then no.
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby robertflesch » April 13th, 2016, 4:23 am

Henrik responding 3 times in one day?
I hope this is representative of the new level of service we can expect from the new owner!
If so, wooohooo!
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby vertical » April 13th, 2016, 9:15 am

Hi,

I have a simple question concerning GPC pricing model : The game traffic "limit" displayed is monthly right ?

I never really pay attention to game traffic in our game (because no limitation with the YGN pricing) and see that with ~150 users per day I make almost 500Mb/day :shock: (I made a 1.30Gb with 350 users yesterday)

And most of the traffic comes from "Received from WebService", which represents the calls to the BDD I suppose (from both client and server).
3-4 Mb per user per day, is that a lot ? I don't even know :(
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby robscherer123 » April 13th, 2016, 2:38 pm

@vertical I can't tell you whether or not those stats are high since I'm only one person running one game. But I can tell you my stats for comparison.

Based on PlayerInsight on April 10th I had 13,830 players sign in.

Based on the bandwidth usage line graph on April 10th I had 97,941mb sent, 16,262 received, and 57,708 for webservice, all totaling 171,911.


171,911 divided by 13,830 = 12.43mb per user.

With this new pricing model I will definitely be optimizing things as much as possible to try and get the costs down. I've also recently banned the creation of new accounts from the Philippines in my game, largely because the ARPU for that country is so low it's near 0 and such a huge amount of my player base is from that country that I will literally be losing quite a bit of money from them. If you're really trying to save some money, I would definitely suggest region locking certain countries from playing your game after analyzing your PlayerInsight revenue from them.
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby vertical » April 13th, 2016, 2:55 pm

Thanks a lot for sharing this !

I think your solution is quite good :) Because if I do the maths, you will be borderline to the Entreprise plan (which is not cheap I guess), with 3000gigs limitation before pay every additionnal gigs. And """"only"""" with 14,000 users.

Maybe I'll optimize a bit the load calls too before shutdown an entire country, I never pay attention to this and it is definitly a mistake from me.
But I won't destruct my game to preserve bandwidth, so if we reach too fast the limit, I'll definitly do something like this too.
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby robscherer123 » April 13th, 2016, 3:30 pm

Yea, I'd definitely be near the Enterprise plan. =/ I'll definitely have to see how else I can really optimize my bandwidth though, I think it's even kind of fun. =P

But yea, I know you probably don't want to limit the amount of players that play your game and block out a country. It's something I hesitated doing for years until a few weeks ago. About 70% of my users are from the Philippines so bandwidth wise it's quite a huge amount. The amount they spend is HORRIBLE, it's next to nothing. A user from the US spends about 40x more on average.

What I would do is open up PlayerInsight and go to the breakdown page where you can view where your players are coming from. Then check out this map http://www.targetmap.com/ThumbnailsReports/26468_THUMB_IPAD.jpg It is a GNP map that basically shows how rich or poor a country is. I found that this strongly correlates to the in game ARPU of a player based on their region. Perhaps consider blocking all poor regions if your losing enough bandwidth to them. I've also spent massive amounts of times banning troublesome users from these regions who try to hack or harass other players. It's simply not worth the loss of bandwidth and man hours moderating regions if they lose you money.
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby aseemgarg321 » April 13th, 2016, 4:41 pm

@ robscherer123

what kind of Game you have? Just trying to understand the data Bandwidth part..

Thanks,
Aseem
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby robscherer123 » April 13th, 2016, 5:04 pm

A realtime sidescrolling MMO. You can play it here if your curious: http://www.helmet-heroes.com
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby vertical » April 13th, 2016, 6:20 pm

Very interesting to hear, thanks :) Your game seems great !

Our game is launched in a week and we don't know how much DAU we are going to get after the crazy launch effect. I know that we are going to have not less than 2 million downloads, but not in a single day, it's a previsional on 2 weeks.
Since YGN still exist until May 9th, we are not really concerned about this new pricing yet but we need to think about it quick.

First we need to check how many users we have after a month and decide after :)
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby Henrik » April 13th, 2016, 7:07 pm

Getting actual data is always the best option, don't optimize until you know what it looks like.

You can use both the Resource Usage page and the PlayerInsight historical stats to see how your bandwidth usage correlates to users.
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby aseemgarg321 » April 13th, 2016, 8:41 pm

@Henrik..
Thanks for Clearing all confusions...


@ robscherer123
Tried your game.. Pretty interesting.. I can guess this game involves a lot of communication between Server and Client.. also u seem to have quite a bit of database. Can imagine reasons why you average around 12/13mb per user login..
Thanks for sharing data that does gives us bit of perspective.

Thanks,
Aseem
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby vertical » April 14th, 2016, 12:07 am

Henrik wrote:Getting actual data is always the best option, don't optimize until you know what it looks like.

You can use both the Resource Usage page and the PlayerInsight historical stats to see how your bandwidth usage correlates to users.


Yep, I already check and I see a perfect match between DAU curve and loaded bytes curve, so I've no expectation it wont follow the actual trend but, as you said, first we need to be sure !
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby GBurg » April 21st, 2016, 11:29 am

Hi guys,

Did anybody find a way to measure the bandwidth of the different packages that are being sent? Would be useful to make benchmarking easier.
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Re: Fees & Network

Postby robscherer123 » April 21st, 2016, 2:17 pm

GBurg wrote:Hi guys,

Did anybody find a way to measure the bandwidth of the different packages that are being sent? Would be useful to make benchmarking easier.


You can do basic counting of bytes to measure the size of your messages. For example a boolean is 1 byte, an int or uint is 4 bytes, and a string is 1 byte for each character. But there is also overhead in each message that is sent. I'm not sure exactly what is in this overhead, but it's some data that must tag along with each message. According to a tutorial page on this site, it says the overhead is around 84 to 120 bytes. So overhead + bytes of your message. That's why they suggest sending as much data as you can in one message as opposed to multiple ones to prevent sending that overhead. Visit this page it will explain more about it: https://gamesnet.yahoo.net/documentatio ... ronization
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